I don't think V2 is consistent with historical Catholicism.I don't want the thread in which he said this to be diverted from its topic, which is different. However, I am curious what he means. If you're interested, Turretinfan, I invite you to spell out your view a bit more - either in comments attached to this post, or perhaps on your own blog - whichever you prefer. Thanks.
Thursday, November 29, 2007
A Question for Turretinfan - Vatican II and History
Turretinfan says:
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9 comments:
I'm not sure what's unclear in my comment. Surely you've heard at least some of the arguments provided by the Sedavacantists regarding their perception as to doctrinal/moral variances brought about via V2 and the contemporaneous changes in canon law.
-Turretinfan
St. Thomas Aquinas on Heresy:
St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica I, Q. 32, Art. 4: "I answer that, Anything is of faith in two ways; directly, where any truth comes to us principally as divinely taught, as the trinity and unity of God, the Incarnation of the Son, and the like; and concerning these truths a false opinion of itself involves heresy, especially if it be held obstinately. A thing is of faith, indirectly, if the denial of it involves as a consequence something against faith; as for instance if anyone said that Samuel was not the son of Elcana, for it follows that the divine Scripture would be false. Concerning such things anyone may have a false opinion without danger of heresy, before the matter has been considered or settled as involving consequences against faith, and particularly if no obstinacy be shown; whereas when it is manifest, and especially if the Church has decided that consequences follow against faith, then the error cannot be free from heresy. For this reason many things are now considered as heretical which were formerly not so considered, as their consequences are now more manifest.”
Reggie, I disagree that Protestants are Christians, because they are outside the Church, whether they have a "valid Baptism" or not does not give them the faith of the Church. Some argue that they might have been Catholic at their baptism, but by consequence of their heresies, they are separated from the Church. Others argue, however, that their heretical actions act as an impediment to the saving grace and divine life of the sacrament, thus they would remain outside the Church.
However, to say that Protestants are fellow Christians implies that the Church of Jesus Christ is not merely the Catholic Church, but that all sects who proclaim Christianity and have a trinitarian baptism are of the Church of Christ, and thus the Church would not be one.
St. Aquinas again:
"'One faith,' St. Paul writes (Eph. 4:5). Hold most firmly that our faith is identical with that of the ancients. Deny this, and you dissolve the unity of the Church ... We must hold this for certain, namely: that the faith of the people at the present day is one with the faith of the people in past centuries. Were this not true, then we would be in a different church than they were in and, literally, the Church would not be One."
St. Thomas Aquinas, O.P., Summa Theologiae, IIa IIae, Q. 33, A. 4 (1225-1274): "Hold firmly that you faith is identical with that of the ancients. Deny this, and you dissolve the unity of the Church."
To deny the unity of the Church is a heresy in and of itself, for the Church teaches that the Church of Christ is one, the faith of Christ is one, and only those are a member of it who are sacramentally united to it.
Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 5): "'There is one God, and one Christ; and His Church is one and the faith is one; and one people, joined together in the solid unity of the body in the bond of concord. This unity cannot be broken, nor the one body divided by the separation of its constituent parts.'"
This one quote here is enough to settle it. But just in case, here's more:
Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis (#27), 1950: “Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the sources of revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same. Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation.”
Pope Pius says that it is necessary to salvation to belong to the true Church.
Pope Leo XIII, Tametsi Futura Prospeicientibus, #7, November 1, 1900: "Hence all who would find salvation apart from the Church, are led astray and strive in vain."
Pope Leo here reiterates, or rather, vice versa.
"Only those are really to be included as members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration [i.e., the sacrament of baptism] and profess the true faith, and have not, to their misfortune, separated themselves from the structure of the Body, or for very serious sins have not been excluded by lawful authority." (Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi, 1943)
Pope Pius again, saying that only those are a member of the true Church who not only have baptism, but also profess the true faith and have not separated themselves from it, which means that Protestants are not members of the Church, and only members of the true Church, the Catholic Church, Catholics, can truly be called Christian:
St. Peter Canisius: "Who is to be called a Christian? He who confesses the doctrine of Christ and His Church." (St. Canisius Catholic Cate-chism, Dillingen, 1560, Question no. 1)
Thank you for your time and consideration,
Leo
Hello Turretinfan,
Thanks for the clarification.
Hello Leo,
So...when Vatican II says:
"For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. The differences that exist in varying degrees between them and the Catholic Church-whether in doctrine and sometimes in discipline, or concerning the structure of the Church-do indeed create many obstacles, sometimes serious ones, to full ecclesiastical communion. The ecumenical movement is striving to overcome these obstacles. But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." Unitatis Redintegratio 3
Do you agree or disagree? Because your statements ("I disagree that Protestants are Christians...") seem to be at variance with this.
Thanks,
RdP
Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”
The Catholic Church is made up of only those who profess the faith of the Church, not heresies, even material ones.
Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516:
"...the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith. That is why it is fitting that, belonging to the one same body, they also have the one same will..."
Which quite plainly says that all those who are in the Catholic Church must be of the same mind and same body.
Pope Leo XII (+1825): “… the bridegroom himself, Jesus Christ said: Whoever does not hear the Church, let him be to you like a gentile and publican.” (Charitate Chisti #14)
Again, those who would be part of the Church must hear the Church.
Pope Pius XI (+1928) on the unity of the Church: “… that unity can only arise from one teaching authority, one law of belief and one faith of Christians.”(Mortalium Animos #9)
One law of belief, and one faith of Christians.
St. Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, lib. II, cap. 30: “Finally, the Holy Fathers teach unanimously not only that heretics are outside of the Church..."
St. Bellarmine testifies that the Holy Fathers of the Church unanimously teach, that means that this is quite clearly of the faith of the Church, of the ordinary magisterium, that heretics are not of the one true Church.
Pope Pius IX, Amantissimus (# 3), April 8, 1862: “There are other, almost countless, proofs drawn from the most trustworthy witnesses which clearly and openly testify with great faith, exactitude, respect and obedience that all who want to belong to the true and only Church of Christ must honor and obey this Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff.”
Those who will belong to the true and only Church of Christ must honor the Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff, and Protestants do not do so.
St. Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, Book II, Chap. 30, concerning judging those who are heretics: “… for men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure
and simple, and condemn him as a heretic.”
Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus, Dec. 8, 1854: “… by their own act they subject themselves to the penalties established by law, if, what they think in their heart [contrary to this decree], they should dare to signify by word or writing or any other external means.”
The penalty spoken of is excommunication.
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, 1441: “Therefore the Holy Roman Church condemns, reproves, anathematizes and declares to be outside the Body of Christ, which is the Church, WHOEVER holds opposing or contrary views.”
Those who hold view contrary to the Holy Roman Church are thus outside of the Church and are condemned and anathematized.
"Anyone who does not abide in the doctrine of Christ, has not God." 2 Jn 1:9
The Protestants, who do not have the full doctrine of Christ thus, have not God.
I Lateran Council: "If ANYONE does not profess properly and truthfully all that has been handed down and taught publicly to the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of God, to the last detail in word and intention: let him be anathema."
The First Lateran Council declares that those who do not profess the faith as taught by the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of God to last detail are anathema - outside the Church and condemned.
VII Council of Carthage: "Heretics are Antichrists and adversaries of Christ." (PL 4:1051)
Quite plain.
St. Cyprian: "He is no Christian who is not in Christ's Church." (Epistle to Antonianus," 52)
Self explanatory.
St. Augustine - If anyone holds to a single heresy, he is not a Catholic. ("On Heresies," no.88; PL 42)
St. Peter Canisius: "Who is to be called a Christian? He who confesses the doctrine of Christ and His Church. Hence, he is truly a Christian thoroughly condemns and detests... the heretical cults and sects." (St. Canisius Catholic Cate-chism, Dillingen, 1560, Question no. 1)
Fr. Michael Müller, C.SS.R., "The Catholic Dogma," 1888: "What Protestant Belief In Christ is - .(Protestants) never had any divine faith in Christ. 'He who does not believe all that Christ has taught,' says St. Ambrose, 'denies Christ himself.' (In Luc. c. 9.) 'It is absurd for a heretic,' says St. Thomas Aquinas, 'to assert that he believes in Jesus Christ. To believe in a man is to give our full assent to his word and to all he teaches. True faith, therefore, is absolute belief in Jesus Christ and in all he has taught. Hence he who does not adhere to all that Jesus Christ has prescribed for our salvation has no more the doc-trine of Jesus Christ and of his Church, than the Pagans, Jews and Turk's have.' 'He is' says Jesus Christ, 'a heathen and publican.'"
I don't need to explain that one.
Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, 1870, Sess. 4, Chap. 3: "… all the faithful of Christ must believe that the Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff hold primacy over the whole world, and the Pontiff of Rome himself is the successor of the blessed Peter, the chief of the apostles, and is the true vicar of Christ and head of the whole Church... Furthermore We teach and declare that the Roman Church, by the disposition of the Lord, holds the sovereignty of ordinary power over all others… This is the doctrine of Catholic truth from which no one can deviate and keep his faith and salvation."
This says that ALL of the faithful must believe that the Pope has the Primacy, which Protestants do not, so it should be quite obvious.
Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 5): "'There is one God, and one Christ; and His Church is one and the faith is one; and one people, joined together in the solid unity of the body in the bond of concord. This unity cannot be broken, nor the one body divided by the separation of its constituent parts.'"
One God, one Christ, One Church, One faith, One people joined in the solid unity of the body and bond of concord. Protestants are not of this One Church, do not have this One Faith, are not joined in this unity of the body, nor of the bond of concord of the catholic faithful. They fit not this criteria.
Pope St. Leo the Great, Council of Chalcedon: "Since we have formulated these things with all possible accuracy and attention, the sacred and universal synod decreed that no one is permitted to produce, or even to write down or compose, any other creed or to think or teach otherwise. As for those who dare either to compose another creed or even to promulgate or teach or hand down another creed for those who wish to convert to a recognition of the truth ...from any kind of heresy at all: ... if they be... layfolk, they are to be anathematised."
I've no need to explain this one.
Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Sess. 8, #2, Dec. 19, 1513: "And since truth cannot contradict truth, we define that every statement contrary to the enlightened truth of the faith is totally false and we strictly forbid teaching otherwise to be permitted. We decree that all those who cling to erroneous statements of this kind, thus sowing heresies which are wholly condemned, should be avoided in every way and punished as detestable and odious heretics and infidels who are undermining the catholic faith."
The Protestants who thus make statements contrary to the enlightened truth of the faith are totally false and those who do cling to them are sowing heresies and should be avoided and punished as detestable and odious heretics and as infidels.
Tertullian: "...Heretics, however, have no fellowship in our discipline, whom the mere fact of their excommunication testifies to be outsiders. I am not bound to recognize in them a thing which is enjoined on me, because they and we have not the same God, nor one—that is, the same—Christ."
"Only those are really to be included as members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration [i.e., the sacrament of baptism] and profess the true faith, and have not, to their misfortune, separated themselves from the structure of the Body, or for very serious sins have not been excluded by lawful authority." (Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi, 1943; Denzinger 2286)
Pope Pius says that only those are members of the Church who are not only baptized, BUT profess the true faith.
Pope Pius VI, Super Solicitate, Nov. 28. 1786: "...God has placed the doctrine of truth in the chair of unity... this See of Peter, in which the See of the Fathers have taught with unanimous agreement that that chair was established, in which alone unity might be preserved by all; from which the rights of the venerable communion emanate to all the others; and to which it is necessary that every Church and all the faithful everywhere come... in blessed Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, his successor, the Roman Pontiff, was established by God as the visible head of the Church, and the Vicar of Jesus Christ, that to him has been transmitted full power of ruling the Church, and that true obedience is due him from all who are considered Christians; and that such power is the power of the Primacy..."
Pope Pius here says that it is necessary for ALL the faithful to come and be united in faith and concord with the Roman Pontiff, and that all those who are really Christians obey him, Protestants do not do this, they are not, then, to be considered Christians, plain and simple, this is clearly, by now at least established here as, the teaching of the Church.
Pope Pius VI, Charitas (# 32), April 13, 1791: “Finally, in one word, stay close to Us. For no one can be in the Church of Christ without being in unity with its visible head and founded on the See of Peter."
Obviously, no one can be in the Church of Christ without being in unity with the visible head of it, the Roman Pontiff, it's quite clear and obvious, and this is why Protestants are not in the Church of Christ, because they have no unity with the head of the Church.
Pope Pius IX, Amantissimus (# 3), April 8, 1862: “There are other, almost countless, proofs drawn from the most trustworthy witnesses which clearly and openly testify with great faith, exactitude, respect and obedience that all who want to belong to the true and only Church of Christ must honor and obey this Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff.”
Again, obedience is due to the Roman Pontiff by all who are to belong to the true and only Church of Christ, they must honor and obey the Roman Pontiff ALL the faithful must believe that the Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff hold primacy over the whole world and that the Pontiff of Rome himself is the successor of the blessed Peter, which Protestants do not, thus, they are not believing that which must be believed by ALL the faithful, thus they cannot be of the faithful of that same Church whose head they reject.
Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 9), June 29, 1896: “The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of Doctrine proposed by Her authoritative Magisterium.”
Pope Leo says that the practice of the Church is to consider outside the Catholic Communion, outside the Church, and ALIEN to the Church WHOEVER would recede in the LEAST degree from ANY point of doctrine proposed by its authoritative magisterium.
Pius IX, Letter from the Holy Office, September 16, 1864: "It [this novelty] can be summed up in this proposition, that the true Church Jesus Christ is made up of one part Roman Church, established and propagated throughout the world, and one part the schism of Photius, and the Anglican heresy, both of which have, with the Church of Rome, one same Lord, one same faith, one same baptism."
This explains that it is a novelty to say that those are part of the true Church of Rome who happen to have the same baptism, thus, it is not of the Tradition of the Church, could be arguably heretical.
Leo XIII, Officio sanctissimo, December 22, 1887: "But he who in his manner of thinking and acting would separate himself from his shepherd and from his Sovereign Pastor, the Roman Pontiff, has no further bond with Christ: “He that heareth you, heareth me, he that despiseth you, despiseth me” (Luke X: 16). Whoever is estranged from Christ does not reap; he scatters."
Pope Leo says that those who are not of the flock of the Roman Pontiff, and do not accept him as their shepherd have no bond with Christ, since they do not hear the shepherd which Christ appointed.
Leo XIII, Satis cognitum, June 29, 1896: "The Church of Christ, therefore, is one and the same forever; those who leave it depart from the will and command of Christ the Lord — leaving the path of salvation they enter on that of perdition. “Whosoever is
separated from the Church is united to an adulteress. He has cut himself off from the promises of the Church, and he who leaves the Church of Christ cannot arrive at the rewards of Christ... He who observes not this unity observes not the law of God, holds not the faith of the Father and the Son, clings not to life and salvatio.” (St.
Augustine, Sermo CCLXVII, no. 4)
Those who are observing the unity of the Church of Christ do not have salvation, nor the life of the Church, Protestants have no part in the "unity of the Church".
Leo XIII, Satis cognitum, June 29, 1896: Those who acknowledge Christ must acknowledge Him wholly and entirely. “The Head is the only-begotten Son of God, the body is his Church; the bridegroom and the bride, two in one flesh. All who dissent from the Scriptures
concerning Christ, although they may be found in all places in which the Church is found, are not in the Church; and again all those who ...do not communicate in the unity of the Church, are not in the Church.”
Schismatic and heretical sects, then, do not communicate in the unity of the Church, are not in the Church, because they hold to false doctrine and are not in union with Rome. They are not “united to the Catholic Church by very close bonds.”
Therefore schismatic sects and heretical sects have no further bond with Christ. They are not in “partial communion” with the Catholic Church, and which are part of the Church of Christ. In fact, they scatter against Christ in their activities.
Pius XI, Mortalium Animos, January 6, 1928: "No one is in the Church of Christ, and no one remains in it, unless he acknowledges and accepts with obedience the authority and power of Peter and his legitimate successors."
Protestants, if they ever were in in the Church by baptism, do not remain in it because they do not accept with obedience to the authority and power of Peter.
Pius XII, Mystici Corporis, June 29, 1943: "Consequently, as in the real assembly of the faithful there can be only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith: and he who refuses to hear the Church must be considered, by the order of the Lord, as a heathen and a publican. And they who are divided by reasons of faith or of government cannot live in this one Body, and in its one Divine Spirit."
There can only be one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can only be one faith, and those who do not hear the Church must be considered as a heathen and a publican, just as those who are divinded by reasons of faith or of government cannot live in this one Body, which is the Church, nor in its one Divine Spirit. Plain and simply, Protestants are one with the faith and government of the Church, thus they cannot live in it.
Pius XII, Mystici Corporis, June 29, 1943: "Therefore they are in dangerous error who think that they can attach themselves to Christ the Head of the Church, without adhering faithfully to his Vicar on earth."
Quite plainly, then, Protestants cannot be attached to Christ, the Head of the Church, because they do not adhere faithfully to his Vicar on earth, the Roman Pontiff.
Leo XII, Pastoris aeterni, July 2, 1826: "Remember and understand well “that where Peter is, there is the Church” (St. Ambrose, In Psalm. 40, no. 30); that “they who have not in their midst the see of Peter, who rend it by impious schism, have no part with Peter’s inheritance” (St. Ambrose, De Poenitent., Book I, c. VII); “that those who refuse to associate themselves with the communion of the Chair of Peter belong to the Antichrist, not to Christ” (St. Jerome, Epist. XV ad Damasum).
Thus those who do not have the See of Peter do not have the Church, since they refuse to associate themselves with the communion of the Chair of Peter, they belong not to Christ, but the AntiChrist.
Gregory XVI, Commissum divinitus, May 17, 1835: "It is an article of faith that the Roman Pontiff, successor of Blessed Peter the prince of the Apostles, not only has a primacy of honor, but also of authority and jurisdiction over the universal Church... That is why, as St. Leo goes on to say, it is necessary for the whole Church
throughout the entire world, to be united to the Holy See of Peter, that is to say, to the Roman Church, and to have recourse to it as to the center of Catholic unity and ecclesiastical communion... And, like the man who gathers not with Christ, he who gathers not with his Vicar, “the same scattereth.” Now, how is it possible for a man to gather with the Vicar of Christ, if he rejects his sacred authority, if he violates the rights in virtue of which that Vicar holds himself to be, at the head of the Church, the center of unity, possessed of the primacy of order and jurisdiction, and the power divinely transmitted to him in all its fullness to pasture, rule, and govern the
universal Church?"
Pope Gregory XVI says that this is an article of faith, de fide, dogmatic, and must, therefore, be assented to. He says that it is necessary for the whole Church, not just part, to be united with the Holy See of Peter, the Roman Church, and to have recourse to it as the source of Catholic unity and ecclesiastical communion.
Pius IX, Letter from the Holy Office, September 16, 1864: “they are separated from the communion of the Church who are not in agreement with the Apostolic See.”
Pius IX, Apostolic Constitution Pastor Æternus, July 18, 1870:
"Hence We teach and declare that by the appointment of Our Lord the Roman Church possesses a sovereignty of ordinary power over all other Churches, and that this power of jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff which is truly episcopal, is immediate;...so that the Church of Christ may be one flock under one supreme pastor, through the preservation of unity both of communion and of profession of the same faith, with the Roman Pontiff. This is the teaching of Catholic truth from which no one can deviate without loss of faith and of salvation."
It is taught and declared no one can deviate from the doctrine of papal primacy and keep his faith and salvation, Protestants do not hold this doctrine, in truth, then, they cannot keep faith and salvation by rejecting a divine truth of God.
Do you agree with all of these papal and saintly statements or do you disagree, even with the First and the Fifth Lateran Councils and Vatican I, which is herein included? These are not my words, not my doctrine, but those of the above quoted popes, priests, and saints. You seem to be somewhat at variance with these could you please explain your thesis?
Thanks,
Leo
I'll take that as a "No" but I'd be delighted if I am mistaken.
Too bad. :-(
You write:
I'll take that as a "No" but I'd be delighted if I am mistaken.
Too bad.
So, no, it matters not that there is a more than blatant conformation of Vatican II to the definitions provided by St. Thomas Aquinas in his summa; it's just too bad that over a dozen popes and half a dozen councils teach the oppostite of Vatican II doesn't it?
But of course Vatican II does not really contradict them though?
It just reaffirms them and continues in their teaching, right?
Pre-vatican II: no one who rejects articles of the faith is a Christian; Post V2- anyone who rejects articles of the faith is a Christian if they think that they are Chrisian and are baptized.
So, we don't have a contradiction here, then?
Then, I'll take that as a "No", but I'd be delighted if you could expound your point a little further and at least try to explain this.
Too bad.:(
Hello Leo,
Pre-vatican II: no one who rejects articles of the faith is a Christian
I do not think that this statement stands with respect to material heretics of the past, as described in the various posts and comments I've already written. Consequently statements by the Magisterium that might otherwise seem to do so must either be directed towards formal heresy or cannot be understood in a universal sense.
RdP
I hope I have satisfiably answered this here.
Thanks,
Leo
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