Saturday, October 27, 2007

He does not seem to understand what we believe

It appears that Turretinfan is declining Dave Armstrong's debate challenge/offer (well, maybe not quite in so many words, but personally I'd say that's the substance of it). I confess to being disappointed, but only in the sense of an unfulfilled prospect for a spectacle. Frankly I don't think debates are worth the time or energy, although some may judge my opinion by the fact that I don't feel particularly qualified to engage in them. In the first place, debates don't "prove" anything, particularly if one participant is especially stronger than the other. But even granting equal capacities on both sides, it seems to me that their usefulness is limited: truth is not contingent upon the outcome of a debate.

Mr. Armstrong is a big boy and can certainly handle the parts of Turretinfan's response that are directed towards him. There are some things there, though, that catch my eye and seem worthy of a paragraph or three here.
Trent denied Sola Gratia by Denying Sola Fide
His objections notwithstanding, this is precisely the sort of thing we are talking about when we say some Protestant or other doesn't understand what we believe. At the same time, too, this statement is dependent upon a question-begging definition of "sola gratia" that not only hasn't been established, but is also entirely unnecessary.

As to the first - whether the Council of Trent "denied Sola Gratia:" I can hardly do better than to quote from Trent itself again, from the Decree on Justification:
The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ... (Chapter V, emphasis added)
Okay, so at the beginning of our Justification we find Trent saying that it comes from God's grace alone (now some silly people might object to the ellipsis there; I will come back to that, I promise).
Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised,-and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus... (Chapter VI, emphasis added)
Here we see again Trent declaring that God justifies us by His grace through Christ.
Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting...(Chapter VII, emphasis added)
Now we come to the meat of sola gratia. And the very first thing that must be said is that if you don't understand scholastic (and in particular Thomistic) philosophy, or even Aristotelian philosophy at least, and if you don't understand their notion of causation, then you are in no position to judge what Trent says here, and once again we are back to what Turretinfan seems to dislike so much: you don't understand what we believe. And I don't pretend to be an expert on St. Thomas nor on the scholastics, but I can at least see that you don't understand Trent apart from them.

The first and most important cause is the final cause: that is, the end or purpose of the thing that is done. And the purpose of our justification is God's own glory. But whose purpose or end is it? It can be none other than God's, because he is the First Cause, and because he is the one who at the beginning of justification gives grace (see above), and who justifies us by his grace (see above). Now this cause above all is the most important, and it comes from God alone, and it finds expression in all the other causes, all of which are dependent upon this one, and apart from which they would never have come to pass. So here we see at the very outset that according to Trent, it is impossible for our salvation to be caused by anything other than grace, properly speaking: because God purposes it from the outset.
while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance;... (ibid., emphasis added)
The efficient cause is that which actually performs the action. Wikipedia puts it this way:
This is the agent which brings something about, for example, in the case of a statue, it is the person chiseling away, and the act of chiseling, that causes the statue. This answers the question, how does it happen? It is the sort of answer we usually expect when we ask about cause; the thing which happened to bring about certain results (emphasis added).
And, from a presumably more academic source:
[T]he efficient cause: the means or agency by which a thing comes into existence (a potter is the efficient cause of a bowl);... (emphasis added)
So here we see again: We are saved by a "merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously" - that is, graciously. But if the cause of our salvation, "the sort of answer we usually expect when we ask about cause," is God's gracious action, then it has nothing to do with us. It is by grace alone: sola gratia.
but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father;... (Trent, loc. cit.; emphasis added)
Now this really ought to lay to rest all the nonsense about whether Trent taught sola gratia. Because for the Protestant, all their insistence upon sola fide has to do with whether one merits his salvation in any way. But here we see it clearly and unequivocally stated: the meritorious cause of our salvation is Jesus Christ himself. It is not anything I do. It is not anything you do. It is Christ. Alone. He merits our salvation. All clear now? Good.

But wait. There's more.
the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified...(ibid.; emphasis added)
The instrumental cause has to do with the tool used to perform an action. A hammer is the instrumental cause when driving a nail; for the Protestant, the instrumental cause of salvation would be faith. It is the instrument by which an effect is brought about by the efficient cause for the sake of the fulfillment of the final cause. And even here, we see that only in an instrumental sense can human action be said to be involved: because it is God who makes use of Holy Baptism as the instrument by which we are saved. So once again we see that our salvation is wrought by God alone.
lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills...(ibid.; emphasis added)
The formal cause is like the blueprint or model for the thing. Again, see here and here. And once again, we see that this cause has nothing to do with us. It is all from God, and consequently all of grace.

Now it ought to be obvious that anything said in Trent about man's activity within the process of our justification simply has to be understood with the foregoing in the background. Anything less would be to completely misunderstand what the Fathers at Trent meant. You can't have human merit being a factor apart from grace, because Christ is the meritorious cause of our salvation. You can't have human merit be the start of our salvation, because the final cause of our salvation is God's glory. You can't have merely human righteousness as sufficient cause for salvation, because the formal cause of our salvation is the justice of God whereby "He maketh us just" (ibid). It's grace, from start to finish.

Once upon a time I came across Turretinfan making this sort of argument:
Legalism => Salvation by works
Denial of Sola Fide => Salvation by works
(Or - in the form he gave it later in the same combox:)
The comment ought to have read:

Salvation by works => Legalism
Denial of Sola Fide => Salvation by works

Ergo
Denial of Sola Fide => Legalism
It ought to be obvious that this begs the question, and (as his interlocutor at the time pointed out) it really amounts to nothing more than a bald assertion. Now we may perhaps wish to be more charitable than Fred was, and say that what it amounts to is a rather limited notion of the alternatives to sola fide. For the only way that such an argument could possibly work is if it were actually the case that only works salvation is an alternative to sola fide. As we have seen, however, Trent has absolutely no difficulty in acknowledging God's sovereign grace as the entire basis of our salvation, while at the same time affirming that our salvation calls for us to obey God.

Towards the end of his post declining Mr. Armstrong's debate challenge, Turretinfan says:
What is more significant, though, is that we reject the gospel of Rome, because it is not the Gospel of Christ: the answer to "What must I do to be saved," is not simply "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" in official Roman Catholic soteriology.
This is handy-dandy proof-texting, but he's going to have a hard time dealing with St. Peter's Pentecost sermon. When he was asked, "Brethren, what shall we do?" (Acts 2:37, emphasis added), we find perhaps the most spectacular occasion in practically the whole Bible for making the case for "sola fide." It's the first sermon of the Christian era. His listeners are Jews - Jews who legalistically suppose that they must earn their salvation by their works. And they've asked the question, "What shall we do?" Now if there was ever a perfect time and opportunity for a sola fide response, it was right then. If there was ever a better setup question, a better moment for declaring the Protestant gospel than this, I don't know what it would have been.

But St. Peter didn't give them that. He didn't say anything like this: "You don't have to do anything. Just have faith in Christ, and you will be saved, because the only way you can be saved is by faith in Christ alone." No. He didn't say that. Instead, he told them what they must do.
Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; emphasis added).
And notice what he did not include in this list of things to do: he doesn't even mention faith. Now of course it would be absurd to suggest that St. Peter was preaching a gospel of works, and I don't mean to say that he is. And of course faith is necessary. But the real question is this: is it not entirely incongruous for St. Peter, on an occasion like that, to say nothing explicit about salvation by faith alone if the gospel really is "sola fide"? In my judgment it is. It's preposterous even to suggest.

We are saved by grace alone, as the Catholic Church has always taught. Anyone who says otherwise just doesn't understand what we believe, and they demonstrate their incomprehension just by denying that Trent taught something other than sola gratia.

5 comments:

Dave Armstrong said...

Great article. Keep up the good work. I will add your blog to my Catholic links.

TF's response convinced me all the more that his problem, with regard to Catholicism, lies in his faulty thinking processes. It's a comprehension and logical problem. There are several glaring fallacies in his reply big enough to drive a Mack truck through.

Someone else will have to tackle them, thought. I have far too little patience. He had his chance to show the world what a fool (and alas, "half-Protestant") I am, but decided not to.

What this showed me (being turned down by all four challenged) was that, once again, anti-Catholics don't have the slightest ability or willingness to defend their first principles or definition of Catholicism as non-Christian. It's a perfect record since 1995 and James White's refusal to do so.

They WILL NOT do it. And, to me, this manifest refusal speaks even louder than any debate that could have taken place.

Which is, of course, more than half of the reason that I made the challenge in the first place, so I am happy insofar as the response proved my point in volumes. It was almost certain that they would refuse. I knew that, and incorporated the likely outcome into my decision to issue the challenge.

These people speak a great game, but when it comes down to it, they cannot defend their own positions, and won't even try to do so.

And that's altogether fine to me, too, because with the opposition to the Catholic Church being that unwilling to enter the field of debate, our ideas win by default. And that is a good thing. Praise God!

Dave

Fred Noltie said...

Hi Dave,

Thank you for your kind words. I was pretty surprised by his claim that you are somehow not fully Catholic. I think that this too reveals a sad degree of misunderstanding about what we believe.

May God continue to bless your efforts in presenting a reasonable case for the Catholic Faith.

Anonymous said...

Of course he decided to decline the offer, many of them do, many of them know that they are misrepresenting the Roman Catholic Church, and thus if they went head to head with a Catholic live, then they know that they would not last ten seconds, Carrie and Rhology are just two examples of that, both of them love to cite Catholic sources, taken out of context, and then misrepresented in a Protestant twist to make it appear that the Church is contrary to Holy writ and the scriptures, it's a common tactic.Actually, I'd hoped to have been able to see such a thing take place, in fact, I'd love to see Rhology and Dave in a debate, Rholly's misrepresentations would suffer the truth of the truth in refutation, and that would not do for them, they would never accept the fact that they have erred.

I see your point though, debates don't accomplish anything when dealing with the Protestant, because the PRotestant will continue in his error no matter what, he is predetermined to beleive and behave the way he does, and no one will tell them otherwise, it's a pride issue.

But then, there are those who believe like the PRotestant, those honest souls who, following blindly in their error, might come to see the truth and accept the Apostolic Faith once delivered to the Saints.

"The comment ought to have read:

Salvation by works => Legalism
Denial of Sola Fide => Salvation by works"


Which is exactly their false view of Catholic perception of Justification, a view which they will hold basically no matter what, but I think it's worth refuting at least to show the truth to those who have not heard it, and to give them an opportunity to come to the truth, I think a debate of Armstrong and these Protestants would accomplish a demonstration of the truth to some misguided individuals who just might need that extra nudge before they accept the facts.

Keep up the great work Reggie,

Leo

Fred Noltie said...

Hello Leo,

Thank you for your kind words.

I don't think you have misunderstood me, but lest some other reader perchance do so, allow me to clarify my hesitation about debates.

What I question is the value of formal debates, not the value of correcting error. I am all in favor of the latter - indeed, it's necessary. What I doubt is that there is any special benefit to be had from a formal debate where the participants agree to a point to argue, and then do their best to make their respective cases for/against the point in question.

I don't think this is a valuable format because of the potential for the audience to conclude that the "loser" did not have the truth on his side just because he "lost". Formal debates demand not just a command of the facts to some degree (hopefully) but also and especially a gift for argument. But a thing is true to the extent that it conforms to reality, not to the extent that some debater was able to make his point.

So I am more inclined to believe that addressing errors independent of a "debate" is more profitable in the long run.

Again - this preference may be nothing more than a reflection of my personal predilections. Your mileage may vary :-)

Regards,

RdP

Anonymous said...

Reggie: Thank you for your kind words.

Leo: You're welcome, and thank you for this intriguing blog of yours; do you mind if I build on some of these thoughts?

Reggie: I don't think you have misunderstood me, but lest some other reader perchance do so, allow me to clarify my hesitation about debates.

Leo: Oh, no, of course not, I was simply providing my opinion, and I agree with you somewhat, allow me to elaborate.

Reggie: What I question is the value of formal debates, not the value of correcting error.

Leo: Of course, of course, no one, I don't think, is questioning that being such an important thing.

Reggie: I am all in favor of the latter - indeed, it's necessary.

Leo: True ecumenism is what it is, and I'm in favour of it all the way.

Reggie: What I doubt is that there is any special benefit to be had from a formal debate where the participants agree to a point to argue, and then do their best to make their respective cases for/against the point in question.

Leo: I see your point, and I've heard enough debates to fully understand this here, my contention is that there is so much side-stepping in these debates, when one poses a question and the other one side-steps it and employs what I call "the double talk", it can really look bad for their position, especially when the Catholic side is the one doing it, although it's much more common with those Protestants defending sola scriptura and sola fide.

Reggie: I don't think this is a valuable format because of the potential for the audience to conclude that the "loser" did not have the truth on his side just because he "lost". Formal debates demand not just a command of the facts to some degree (hopefully) but also and especially a gift for argument. But a thing is true to the extent that it conforms to reality, not to the extent that some debater was able to make his point.

Leo: Indeed, It's really all about being able to articulate the arguments in a way that will stump one's opponent, and unfortunately, a lot of fact-twisting is usually involved there, we tend to end up with lots of strawmen and red herrings instead of an argument with some meat to it; it takes a lot to do that from anyone.

Reggie: So I am more inclined to believe that addressing errors independent of a "debate" is more profitable in the long run.

Leo: For the individual, that is indeed best, for the articulator of the debates, it's not, because written presentations against PRotestantism to a Protestant are often misconstrued to mean something that they don't really mean, and then the Protestant usually goes off on some tangent about whatever he distorted the material to mean, and thus in his critique, turns it into something totally against the faith of Jesus Christ.

Regge: Again - this preference may be nothing more than a reflection of my personal predilections. Your mileage may vary

Leo: Well, it has some merit to it, because in some debates, not all the issues can be covered, so that it is really difficult to get a full consideration of all of the issues at hand when these take place, so there is always room to lose in debates because of this;
but I still think that they are necessary to counter the misconceptions and the errors of Protestants, even with these critical defects.

Regards,

Leo