tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5239290722575996816.post5589173271434475668..comments2023-11-23T11:12:37.953-06:00Comments on The Supplement - Catholic Commentary: Formal vs. Material HeresyFred Noltiehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10203885485191808284noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5239290722575996816.post-55881456322995164262007-11-29T06:21:00.000-06:002007-11-29T06:21:00.000-06:00Turretinfan,I've added a post wherein I invite you...Turretinfan,<BR/><BR/>I've added a <A HREF="http://the-supplement.blogspot.com/2007/11/question-for-turretinfan-vatican-ii-and.html" REL="nofollow">post</A> wherein I invite you to expand upon what you mean when you say "I don't think V2 is consistent with historical Catholicism."<BR/><BR/>I mention it here for your consideration. Thanks.<BR/><BR/>Peace,<BR/><BR/>RdPFred Noltiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10203885485191808284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5239290722575996816.post-83159432709541199792007-11-29T05:45:00.000-06:002007-11-29T05:45:00.000-06:00Hello Turretinfan,Obviously we disagree about the ...Hello Turretinfan,<BR/><BR/>Obviously we disagree about the continuity of VII with the historical Catholic Church.<BR/><BR/>I prefer not divert the present conversation onto that track.<BR/><BR/><I>despite the near-universal practice of baptizing (often "conditionally") converts from non-Catholic churches.</I><BR/><BR/>You say this based upon what? Having been actually received into the Church, Fred Noltiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10203885485191808284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5239290722575996816.post-44900216607229352772007-11-28T21:35:00.000-06:002007-11-28T21:35:00.000-06:00Dear RdP,I don't think V2 is consistent with histo...Dear RdP,<BR/><BR/>I don't think V2 is consistent with historical Catholicism (and the current CCC is generally consistent with V2 - in fact it quotes therefrom).<BR/><BR/>V2 does refer to "separated brethren" which would pretty much settle the matter as to post-V2 Catholicism, despite the near-universal practice of baptizing (often "conditionally") converts from non-Catholic churches.<BR/><BR/>Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5239290722575996816.post-5796074036911863382007-11-28T21:03:00.000-06:002007-11-28T21:03:00.000-06:00Hello Turretinfan,The SSPX is not currently on par...Hello Turretinfan,<BR/><BR/>The SSPX is not currently on particularly good terms with the Catholic Church. For an introduction see <A HREF="http://www.envoymagazine.com/backissues/4.6/goingthedistance.htm" REL="nofollow">here</A>. This being the case I would seriously recommend against relying exclusively upon their characterizations of Catholic doctrine.<BR/><BR/>The page you link to is intendedFred Noltiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10203885485191808284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5239290722575996816.post-91382204805763948182007-11-28T20:12:00.000-06:002007-11-28T20:12:00.000-06:00[I deleted an earlier version of this comment of m...[I deleted an earlier version of this comment of mine.]<BR/><BR/><I>Another words: historically, there was no such thing as a valid non-Catholic baptism.</I><BR/><BR/>Hmm...that seems to be inconsistent with what is reported in the section "Extraordinary Minister" <A HREF="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm#XIII" REL="nofollow">here</A>. Note especially:<BR/><BR/>The Fourth Council of theFred Noltiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10203885485191808284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5239290722575996816.post-42917910116523179732007-11-28T20:10:00.000-06:002007-11-28T20:10:00.000-06:00RdP: I think you'll find that the matter is somewh...RdP: I think you'll find that the matter is somewhat more nuanced than New Advent might suggest:<BR/><BR/>(<A HREF="http://www.sspx.org/miscellaneous/validity_of_holy_orders.htm" REL="nofollow">link</A>)<BR/><BR/>The link provides "your side" of the issue, but as you can guess from the presentation made, there is another side, and things are not quite as clearly defined as New Advent would seem Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5239290722575996816.post-39139164876730289352007-11-28T19:10:00.000-06:002007-11-28T19:10:00.000-06:00You asked what seems to be a meta-question: "Is th...You asked what seems to be a meta-question: "Is the question, then: Does the Magisterium of the Catholic Church teach this: that all who are validly baptized outside the Catholic Church are presumptively Christians?"<BR/><BR/>The question is related:<BR/>- Is there such a thing as a valid baptism that is not a Catholic baptism?<BR/><BR/>I think you'll find that the historical answer was no: the Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5239290722575996816.post-3769270243139196802007-11-28T18:17:00.000-06:002007-11-28T18:17:00.000-06:00Hello Turretinfan,Before we go any further, perhap...Hello Turretinfan,<BR/><BR/>Before we go any further, perhaps we need to clarify what we are discussing just a little bit more.<BR/><BR/>Is the question, then: Does the Magisterium of the Catholic Church teach this: that all who are validly baptized outside the Catholic Church are presumptively Christians?<BR/><BR/>That's what my post was about, with particular emphasis on the standing of Fred Noltiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10203885485191808284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5239290722575996816.post-71270543406692035362007-11-28T08:05:00.000-06:002007-11-28T08:05:00.000-06:00RdP,Take Arius. Catholic? Well, he was not schis...RdP,<BR/><BR/>Take Arius. <BR/><BR/>Catholic? Well, he was not schismatic formally. He did not set up a sect, or encourage people to leave communion with the bishop of Rome.<BR/><BR/>But will say that such a herisarch was a Christian? I certainly would not, but perhaps my Protestant biases are interfering with my ability to put myself in Italian loafers.<BR/><BR/>So then I see several Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5239290722575996816.post-23370706608719321312007-11-27T23:07:00.000-06:002007-11-27T23:07:00.000-06:00Hello TF,Perhaps the difficulty is with the wordin...Hello TF,<BR/><BR/>Perhaps the difficulty is with the wording of the Catholic Encyclopedia bit that you mention in your initial comment - where it might seem to suggest that literally any baptism formally makes one a Catholic.<BR/><BR/>On the basis of that, I suppose I could see how confusion could be generated. I do not think that this is a necessary interpretation of that snippet, but even if Fred Noltiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10203885485191808284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5239290722575996816.post-79803737381179337002007-11-27T22:41:00.000-06:002007-11-27T22:41:00.000-06:00Hello Turretinfan,In reviewing your original comme...Hello Turretinfan,<BR/><BR/>In reviewing your original comment I see that in my haste (I was on the way out the door when I quickly rattled out my initial reply) I overlooked a significant qualifier:<BR/><BR/>"<I>From my perspective,</I> do you see the contradiction?"<BR/><BR/>I apologize for this oversight.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps I can understand why you might reckon it to be a contradiction, if you Fred Noltiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10203885485191808284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5239290722575996816.post-15219991894875302552007-11-27T21:48:00.000-06:002007-11-27T21:48:00.000-06:00I ought to say before I say anything else, with re...I ought to say before I say anything else, with reference to your original comment here: certainly the mere fact that you are not a Catholic does not imply <I>ipso facto</I> that you always and everywhere misunderstand Catholic doctrine. If I gave you the impression that I thought otherwise, please indicate what I said that gave you that impression and I will consider whether I need to issue a Fred Noltiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10203885485191808284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5239290722575996816.post-64333502669462646622007-11-27T19:10:00.000-06:002007-11-27T19:10:00.000-06:00Dear RdP,I believe in your sincerity.Is there a va...Dear RdP,<BR/><BR/>I believe in your sincerity.<BR/><BR/>Is there a valid baptism that is not a Catholic baptism?<BR/><BR/>Cf. "because there is only one valid Baptism which is by definition Catholic, though they did not find that out until they died" (<A HREF="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a130.htm" REL="nofollow">source</A>).<BR/><BR/>Now, before you say so, I realize that God is bigger Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5239290722575996816.post-84086147237151938152007-11-27T18:10:00.000-06:002007-11-27T18:10:00.000-06:00Hello Turretinfan,I'm truly not being disingenuous...Hello Turretinfan,<BR/><BR/>I'm truly not being disingenuous: I do not see the contradiction.<BR/><BR/>If you were never a Catholic, you are not bound by Catholic baptismal promises, and consequently you cannot be a formal heretic simply by virtue of being a Protestant.<BR/><BR/>The important part of baptism - by which one becomes a Christian - is not the promises. It's the baptism. That's why Fred Noltiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10203885485191808284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5239290722575996816.post-66029145558243018052007-11-27T08:39:00.000-06:002007-11-27T08:39:00.000-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5239290722575996816.post-35354907239499430972007-11-27T08:38:00.000-06:002007-11-27T08:38:00.000-06:00RdP:Compare this:"So we are perfectly within our r...RdP:<BR/><BR/>Compare this:<BR/>"So we are perfectly within our rights to refer to Protestants as our brothers in Christ, by virtue of their baptism."<BR/><BR/>With this:<BR/>"'No one is forced to enter the Church, but having once entered it through baptism, he is bound to keep the promises he freely made' (ibid.)<BR/>So: since the average Protestant today was never formally a part of the Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5239290722575996816.post-68148140029653100542007-11-02T14:32:00.000-05:002007-11-02T14:32:00.000-05:00Hi Leo,Thanks for the clarification. That does hel...Hi Leo,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the clarification. That does help explain what you mean. I appreciate it.<BR/><BR/>But it seems impossible to me to distinguish between a man who simply and truly doesn't understand what I say - whether because of my own failure to communicate clearly, or because of some weakness on his own part - and a man who refuses the grace to believe that has been offered. This Fred Noltiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10203885485191808284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5239290722575996816.post-51636208164615224682007-11-02T13:56:00.000-05:002007-11-02T13:56:00.000-05:00I'm having a hard time imagining a Protestant who ...<I>I'm having a hard time imagining a Protestant who knows that the Bible teaches the Catholic doctrine of the Eucharist.</I><BR/><BR/>I'm speaking of one to whom the doctrine has been presented, to one who has been exposed to the truth of the doctrine, and yet rejects it, even after having seen it been demonstrated.<BR/><BR/>What I am saying is that Catholic dogma can be presented to the Leohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15348128854558510017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5239290722575996816.post-39320210594380220762007-11-02T12:33:00.000-05:002007-11-02T12:33:00.000-05:00Hello Leo,I'm having a hard time imagining a Prote...Hello Leo,<BR/><BR/>I'm having a hard time imagining a Protestant who knows that the Bible teaches the Catholic doctrine of the Eucharist.<BR/><BR/>The reason I asked is that I have a hard time imagining that a man who is born and raised as a Protestant can nevertheless be a formal heretic. That isn't what you're saying, is it?Fred Noltiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10203885485191808284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5239290722575996816.post-77957504593583074232007-11-02T10:58:00.000-05:002007-11-02T10:58:00.000-05:00Hi, ReggieLet's assume that a Protestant learns so...Hi, Reggie<BR/><BR/>Let's assume that a Protestant learns some truth of the Catholic faith, lets say for ex. the Eucharist, they know that this is what the Bible teaches and the Early Christians believed, but they choose to reject the doctrine; so they deny that article of faith to believe and live the way that they want to, they reject an article of faith which they know is true, but do so Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5239290722575996816.post-57239488190727195862007-11-01T22:39:00.000-05:002007-11-01T22:39:00.000-05:00Hi Leo,What does it mean for a Protestant to "know...Hi Leo,<BR/><BR/>What does it mean for a Protestant to "know" the truths of the Catholic Faith, such that he could be reasonably called a formal heretic?<BR/><BR/>Regards,<BR/><BR/>ReginaldFred Noltiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10203885485191808284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5239290722575996816.post-90669182721387056312007-11-01T15:30:00.000-05:002007-11-01T15:30:00.000-05:00Maybe he misunderstands it, and maybe not, it migh...Maybe he misunderstands it, and maybe not, it might just be a corruption of it, in order to find some beef with the Church to make something out of in offense to the Church; but we'll never know, but I might assume the latter if he is using an article that explains the facts, which he omits in his post, if indeed he read it, which he may have, considering that this is what he is using as ammo.<BRLeohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15348128854558510017noreply@blogger.com